Comments on Tactical Insights. Turn based tactics/strategy and tactical/strategy RPG news and reviews.: Tactics Ogre: Let Us Cling Together (PSP) Review

"However I would love to see a game with a tu...

2011-11-04T14:58:06.973-04:00

"However I would love to see a game with a turn counter limit to each battle, a sort of puzzle-turn-based-strategy game. You have a knight, two thieves and a wizard, beat that dragon in eleven turn. That would be awesome."

Yeah, too bad nobody has really done that yet.

Yet.

> Not if all the enemies are generic and easy t...

2011-11-04T06:51:37.503-04:00

> Not if all the enemies are generic and easy to beat down as in FFT and TO.

I think "Balance" in those game should be about the AI being able to counter all player strategies, which, in my opinion, is quite impossible. Giving better stats just won't compensate if you can trick the AI. It's like trying to make an AI for a chess game with hundreds of different pieces.

> You can play traditional RPGS without grinding, as well.

But not without a thousand random encounters where you only press the attack button while watching long long long fight introduction, attacks, and scoring a the end ^^;

>In FFT if you choose not to grind, you're highly limited in what sorts of setups you can create.
Actually not, I beat the PSP version with 5 level 28-29 dark knights (one of the most advanced class), but you obviously can't do everything.

> You can't ignore something about a game when reviewing it just because you don't like it.

Allright with that, and that's why I agree with your review, but I could still find a way to enjoy the game.

> For example, you can theoretically grind in Fire Emblem or Super Robot Wars, but they typically have scoring systems or turn counters to indicate that your skill and strategy is lower than someone with a better score.

As a player, scoring is revelent (for me) only if it is included in the gameplay, like in rythm games (Ouendan, Rock Band, ...), or a few other games (Trials HD) : if you suck at the game, you can't finish it. Playing a one hour battle without knowing whether you're doing good or not and knowing you will beat it is not really fun, or you need to really love the game. And you'll have to play countless hour to understand how exactly the scoring works, which will probably end up by the player using a very strict strategy, losing all the sandbox interest which is playing the way you want.

The turn counter is also a not-that-good indicator in my opinion, because movement is involved. If all classes are in balanced, those who move faster will surely terminate all missions faster.

However I would love to see a game with a turn counter limit to each battle, a sort of puzzle-turn-based-strategy game. You have a knight, two thieves and a wizard, beat that dragon in eleven turn. That would be awesome.

But it won't work on a sandbox, some strategy are just way faster than others. For example a team with only damage dealer will end up fights faster than one including a healer or two, but maybe the second strategy is way better.

> Is this the PSP version, or the older versions? I didn't encounter this problem in the PSP version.

Yes, I only played TO on PSP, I was level 17 when starting the last dungeon.

Regarding Disgaea, I did only the one with Laharl on PSP (the first one ?) and didn't really like it. The game was "fun" overall, but not thanks to the gameplay. The only difficulty lied in enemy levels. The game offered a lot of possibility to enhance weapons, restart character from the start, etc, etc. But it was grinding all the way, and I finished the game with basically only Laharl, the other character were only here to be killed.

I found it way way below FFT and TO, there were a lot of good ideas unexploited in my opinion.

>I think it's difficult as hell to balance ...

2011-11-03T06:43:44.231-04:00

>I think it's difficult as hell to balance a sandbox.

Not if all the enemies are generic and easy to beat down as in FFT and TO. Sure the balance is in the players favor, but most players tend to consider that 'balanced', and only 'imbalanced' if the enemy has the upper hand in stats, numbers, etc. Not to mention that CPU AI plays a big role in adjusting the difficulty or balance of the game. Like even if you give the CPU most of the same abilities as the player, if it can't use them properly, the player will still have an easier time.

>Yet I really liked FFT and Tactics Ogre, because unlike what I saw in traditionnal JRPG, you have to CHOOSE an evolution path, and provided you don't grind, some fights are challenging with some teams.

You can play traditional RPGS without grinding, as well. However, in a proper critical analysis of a game, grinding must be taken into account. In FFT if you choose not to grind, you're highly limited in what sorts of setups you can create, because it's probably not worth the effort to saddle yourself with a lv 1 class near the middle or end of the game. You can't ignore something about a game when reviewing it just because you don't like it. Furthermore, there are far more things wrong with FFT and TO than being able to grind or not. For example, you can theoretically grind in Fire Emblem or Super Robot Wars, but they typically have scoring systems or turn counters to indicate that your skill and strategy is lower than someone with a better score.

>However in Tactics Ogre, I was forced to do several (like 3-4) random encounters because my attack always dealt 1 damage due to under-levelling.

Is this the PSP version, or the older versions? I didn't encounter this problem in the PSP version.

>I think the balance issue is due to the fact that they wanted everyone to be able to finish their games.

There are many ways to tackle difficulty, scoring systems, and game balance so that players of a wide range of skills are satisfied. Tactics Ogre does none of these things effectively.

>Another point I really really like in both FFT and TO is the character-based initiative system, I found it far more interesting than team-based initiative.

Both systems have their positives and drawbacks. I don't see it as a positive or negative either way.

>couldn't you love this teenie weenie little adorable cute sprites?

I was more infuriated by the sprites slowly plodding around and being unable to skip their animations, more than anything.

>I am seriously interested to see a Disgaea or FFT Review from you

I probably wouldn't rate Disgaea 4 that harshly. I appreciate the initiative they are taking with their series, always adding new content, new things to do, level editors, etc. It's becoming less of a sandbox and more of a huge playground. Not that it takes any more skill or strategy than before, but at least there's more things to distract yourself with than watching how high your stats can go. Compare that to the FFT and TO series, all of which they've done is release poorly made or barely altered rehashes riddled with flaws and technical issues.

Turn Based McDonalds Playpen is my favorite genre!...

2011-11-02T16:06:50.027-04:00

Turn Based McDonalds Playpen is my favorite genre!

o.O That review is really urging my inner fanboy ...

2011-11-02T12:53:02.297-04:00

o.O
That review is really urging my inner fanboy to snap violently...but a Rview a opinion always is and thus it should be respected.

...but couldn't you love this teenie weenie little adorable cute sprites? they make you go *cough*

After reading this harsh but fair review I am seriously interested to see a Disgaea or FFT Review from you.....BUT I can already see which direction that would go! ;-P

I think it's difficult as hell to balance a sa...

2011-11-02T10:22:15.357-04:00

I think it's difficult as hell to balance a sandbox. How can you compare an aoe spell with random damage to a backstab ability that will work only on humanoids ? But I see your point, they could just test the game with different settings and try to balance the whole, which they obviously didn't.

I quite don't get the RPG thingy though, I am quite a JRPG hater, I can't play any of those. I finished only Chrono Trigger because I could accelerate time on the emulator and because I found a way NOT to fight all the pointless random encounters (chrono + berserker blade). Yet I really liked FFT and Tactics Ogre, because unlike what I saw in traditionnal JRPG, you have to CHOOSE an evolution path, and provided you don't grind, some fights are challenging with some teams. I remember trying Velius like 30 time before succeeding with my team the first time I played FFT, but obviously because I only did story fights, no "cheated" XP.

However in Tactics Ogre, I was forced to do several (like 3-4) random encounters because my attack always dealt 1 damage due to under-levelling.

I think the balance issue is due to the fact that they wanted everyone to be able to finish their games. Everybody can't finish every mission in one try ? Ok give them a guy with all knights power, excalibur and boosts of perpetual haste... Ok that sux, but you're not forced to play with him.

Again I agree on the level design, objectives are always the same, missions are uneventful and quite rigid. But again I never played another turn-based strategy game with a level design that good.

Another point I really really like in both FFT and TO is the character-based initiative system, I found it far more interesting than team-based initiative.

It theoretically shouldn't be difficult to bal...

2011-11-02T05:46:52.680-04:00

It theoretically shouldn't be difficult to balance sandbox games. If any option available to the player is equally as likely to win, then the game is balanced. Usually though in their attempt to give everything and the kitchen sink to the player, sandbox games tend to have a few inadvertently overpowering abilities. However, the difficulty of sandbox games is deliberately low to allow even the strangest, most unorthodox strategies to succeed.

It's no secret that I like puzzle-like games or games with strategic difficulty that require complex solutions to each scenario that also involve some kind of useful scoring system. That may or may not include RPG-like growth systems.

My real issue with Tactics Ogre, FFT, etc. is that they drag all of the baggage of traditional RPGs into the SRPG realm then receive loads of undue praise by inexperienced or ignorant gamers. Even ignoring the RPG baggage, Tactics Ogre's levels are poorly designed, repetitive, and uneventful, which certainly could have been improved on without touching its grind happy nature.

I actually agree with most of your review, but I s...

2011-11-01T19:24:59.564-04:00

I actually agree with most of your review, but I still loved that game :p. However, though I like the genre I didn't played that much turn-based strategy games, maybe I just never tried a "good" one.

My rules were : no grind, no side quest, when you found an OP strategy don't use it, try most of the classes in one run, no fancy rollback during a fight.

I really like the sandbox thingy in those game, but till now I never found one really balanced. I tend to think only multiplayer games can really be balanced, but maybe I'm wrong.

I didn't read all your posts, but I would be curious to know what your favorite turn-based games are, and why.

I had the import listed (which is why it was title...

2011-10-30T03:33:10.179-04:00

I had the import listed (which is why it was titled wheel of fate and not let us cling together) but I forgot to remove it after I'd played it in English. Sorry about that.

It's getting harder to find good tactics games in English, unfortunately. As far as 2011 is concerned, Devil Survivor Overclocked, Panzer Corps, Legends of War: Patton's Campaign, and Battle Academy are decent. I haven't played any of the 2011 iphone tactics games yet but I'm sure at least one or two of them are decent and in English.

Also, can you recommend some "sleek, efficien...

2011-10-30T03:27:51.679-04:00

Also, can you recommend some "sleek, efficient, and well designed modern tactics games of today" released on english?

Good review, but I wonder why Tactics Ogre is in y...

2011-10-30T03:23:22.050-04:00

Good review, but I wonder why Tactics Ogre is in your recommended list(http://www.tbstactics.com/2010/11/recommended-turn-based-tactics-games.html)?